Oscar Tejeda/Engel Beltre, Gagne Trade

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DaveLNH		#21	[url]	[-]
Rookie Posts: 67 07/19/08 9:56 PM	templeUsox wrote: What I heard was that they wanted Tejeda and the Sox wouldn't part with him, so they took Beltre. In foresight, it was an awful trade which deserves more derision then it has received. awful on so many levels... At least Larry Anderson wasn't an imbedded yankee bent on DESTROYING the red sox from within... That said, even if it was a case of giving Murphy away, I'm very happy for the guy because he probably would never have gotten a proper shot with the sox. He was always great with the fans. That 05 Portland Seadogs team sure was something...
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OCD SS		#22	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 414 07/19/08 10:14 PM Veteran Member	btierney54 wrote: And I remmber hearing of them (rangers) looking at lester im glad we didn't do that. The only time the Rangers had a shot at Lester was during the ARod talks. However, there was some talk later on that the Sox offered Bowden and the Rangers weren't interested, prefering Gabbard. I think the important thing with this was the lack of context. The info was dropped offhandedly (I think in a Jim Callis chat), but I doubt the full story was disclosed. I'm guessing that if the Sox offered Bowden it was in a deal that was Murphy and Bowden or Texas could take Gabbard, Murphy, and Beltre. *"I'd like to fck Sandra Bullock"** - Pedro, explaining his secret ambition to Sports Illustrated for Kids.
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AttackLife		#23	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 169 07/19/08 10:32 PM	I'll play the devils advocate. This trade isn't as bad as it seems. The Red Sox ending up getting what they wanted, they won the World Series in 2007. Pretty much everyone knew Gagne was going to leave after last season whether he pitched well or not. If he pitches well then a team ends up giving him big bucks to close for them, which is what he wanted. He sucked and ended up closing for the Brewers. So regardless he was gone after the 07 season. Although, this trade is clearly bad because Gagne wasn't needed, the short-term result is what the Red Sox were looking for. If Boston doesn't win the World Series it's a completely different story, but that's the way it played out. Yes, Gagne sucked, but it's not like he stopped Boston from winning it all. What if he pitches well during the regular season, makes the post-season roster, and then sucks it up causing the Red Sox to lose in the playoffs? The trade is nothing to lose sleep over.
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soxphd		#24	[url]	[-]
Rookie Posts: 13 07/20/08 7:31 AM	I second all the nice things that have been said about Murphy, but based upon his home/road splits, he's much more of an average player away from one of the best hitting parks in all of MLB. So even if there was a spot for him in Boston, I don't think the results would be as impressive. Still, a seemingly great kid and I'm excited for his success. Sorry, I know this thread was originally more about Beltre at the start but wanted to throw that out there.
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OCD SS		#25	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 414 07/20/08 9:19 AM Veteran Member	I'll second AttackLife's point. This trade looks really bad in light of knowing just how bad Gagne sucked with the Sox, but you can't decide whether or not to make a trade that way. It was a reasonable move to make at the time. Bullpen help is always tough to come by and the only piece the Sox miss from the deal is a single low A OFer who might have had attitude problems, who's approach is 180 degrees from what the Sox want from their offensive players, who played a position that is well stocked in the system, and who just happened to have a great week. *"I'd like to fck Sandra Bullock"** - Pedro, explaining his secret ambition to Sports Illustrated for Kids.
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LondonSox		#26	[url]	[-]
Rookie Posts: 70 07/20/08 11:42 AM	This is hindsight trading at it's worst. Yes Beltre was a painful to give up, but that's what you have to do for a trade. Gabbard and Murphy were to the Sox spare parts, Moss > Murphy and Pauley/Zink > Gabbard. The cost was minor depth plus Beltre for a guy who at the time was pitching well and was expected widely to be a major boost to the pen and give Oki (who most thought would come back to earth) a rest. Beltre was a decent high tools prospect who you could in theory replace with 500k-1mm bonus the next year. Do you give that guy up for what you think could be the key to locking in the best pen in the AL? Of course you do. There may have been some uber fans of Beltre who saw him a lot more than anyone esle that can argue. Anyone else is insane. There were a few who thought Gagne was a question mark, and yeah fine there probably are some who can say I told you so. But NO ONE expected Gagne to be THAT bad. The criticism of this trade would be insane, in hindsight it was a terrible trade that cost the Sox a prospect but not the world series. At the time it was a good/great trade. Do all of us, and Theo wish he hadn't done the trade. I expect so. Would he make a similar trade again, yup I'm sure he would. I also think expectations of the trade were hurt because the leak was Gabbard and Murphy and we were all doing cartwheels, but then Beltre appeared on the final story and suddenly it seemed like it wasn't a slam dunk just a fair trade. Edited just for spelling and a missed else Last Edited By: LondonSox 07/20/08 12:00 PM. Edited 1 time.
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ortizj79		#27	[url]	[-]
Rookie Posts: 16 07/20/08 11:55 AM	LondonSox wrote: This is hindsight trading at it's worst. Yes Beltre was a painful to give up, but that's what you have to do for a trade. Gabbard and Murphy were to the Sox spare parts, Moss > Murphy and Pauley/Zink > Gabbard. The cost was minor depth plus Beltre for a guy who at the time was pitching well and was expected widely to be a major boost to the pen and give Oki (who most thought would come back to earth). Beltre was a decent high tools prospect who you could in theory replace with 500k-1mm bonus the next year. Do you give that guy up for what you think could be the key to locking in the best pen in the AL? Of course you do. There may ahve been some uber fans of Beltre who saw him a lot more than anyone esle that can argue. Anyone is insane. There were a few who thought Gagne was a question mark, and yeah fine there probably are some who can say I told you so. But NO ONE expected Gagne to be THAT bad. The criticism of this trade would be insane, in hindsight it was a terrible trade that cost the Sox a prospect but not the world series. At the time it was a good/great trade. Do all of us, and Theo wish he hadn't done the trade. I expect so. Would he make a similar trade again, yup I'm sure he would. I also think expectations of the trade were hurt because the leak was Gabbard and Murphy and we were all doing cartwheels, but then Beltre appeared on the final story and suddenly it seemed like it wasn't a slam dunk just a fair trade. Not to mention that at the time they expected him (Gagne) to be a type A free agent so the trade was really beltre, murphy and gabbard for gagne, a 1st round pick and a supplemental first round pick.
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ortizj79		#28	[url]	[-]
Rookie Posts: 16 07/20/08 12:01 PM	woolly93 wrote: Rock4751 wrote: <<So with that said, I wasn't concerned with losing Gabbard and Murphy...neither would be a starter on the Red Sox, and the (potential) gains from Gagne outweighed their loss, imo. The real loss--besides keeping Gabbard and Murphy for future moves--was losing Beltre. I was COMPLETELY against including him in the trade and still don't understand his inclusion. Now, in hindsight, it looks even worse. As I said in the Hot Sheet thread, it looks to me like the worst championship-season move I can remember.>> Couldn't agree with you more. I thought the rangers held theo for ransom by making him include Beltre. Good job on their part. Does the recent signing of a lot of these prospects a sign the red sox are getting ready to unload a lot of them in a trade? Just a thought I have seen this idea (big trade using up our prospects) posted a few times. I am struggling to see who I would trade for, outside of a shortstop (and I don't see that happening). I was for a CC Sabathia trade, but outside of that kind of player, where is our gap? Relievers are a crap shoot, and ours are as good as any others - Gagne taught us not to pay for a hot 3 months... Our position players are set - Lugo isn't going anywhere and Tek is the Captain. I would not be surprised to see Theo ride the current roster into October, with maybe a minor move in the bullpen or bench. We have a thread for trade proposals - maybe we need one for no proposals... They coul be gearing for a trade for a LF in the off season.
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IBSmith85		#29	[url]	[-]
Rookie Posts: 35 07/20/08 12:21 PM	< I agree....i think if Holliday is available in the offseason they make a serious run at him and lose Manny
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TigerDom		#30	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 129 07/20/08 12:58 PM Veteran Member	Not to mention that at the time they expected him (Gagne) to be a type A free agent so the trade was really beltre, murphy and gabbard for gagne, a 1st round pick and a supplemental first round pick. EXACTLY ... which made the risk analysis of the trade a lot trickier. Each of the three components being traded for (Gagne, 1st round pick, supp. pick) had individual risk of downside, that is customary in a trade ... Gagne could be terrible, the draft picks could turn out to be busts. But in this case, the downside of one component (Gagne) actually eliminates one of the components being traded for (1st round pick). Given this second layer of risk, they should have structured the trade with the "Player To Be Named Later" ... if Gagne made Type A and the Sox get the extra pick, then give the Rangers Beltre like they were demanding ... if Gagne made Type B and the Sox did not get the extra pick, then give the Rangers a lower tiered player.
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GloveMasterFlex		#31	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 2098 07/20/08 1:48 PM Veteran Member	I think we're getting caught up in Beltre's hot week. Beltre has 8 walks this year in 404 ABs. I don't have his SF #s of HBPs so I can't calculate his exact BB/PA percentage, but it's less than 2%. 2%??? I know he's raw and full of potential, but no need to panic just yet. Sure if you could do that trade again you'd switch Tejeda with Beltre, but I'm going to wait and reserve judgment until Beltre shows me a little more. He's a lottery ticket who looks a little bit better than last year, but not enough to cause me heartburn just yet.
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templeUsox		#32	[url]	[-]
Moderator Veteran Member Posts: 12475 07/20/08 2:03 PM Moderator	LondonSox wrote: This is hindsight trading at it's worst. Yes Beltre was a painful to give up, but that's what you have to do for a trade. Gabbard and Murphy were to the Sox spare parts, Moss > Murphy and Pauley/Zink > Gabbard. The cost was minor depth plus Beltre for a guy who at the time was pitching well and was expected widely to be a major boost to the pen and give Oki (who most thought would come back to earth) a rest. Beltre was a decent high tools prospect who you could in theory replace with 500k-1mm bonus the next year. Do you give that guy up for what you think could be the key to locking in the best pen in the AL? Of course you do. There may have been some uber fans of Beltre who saw him a lot more than anyone esle that can argue. Anyone else is insane. There were a few who thought Gagne was a question mark, and yeah fine there probably are some who can say I told you so. But NO ONE expected Gagne to be THAT bad. The criticism of this trade would be insane, in hindsight it was a terrible trade that cost the Sox a prospect but not the world series. At the time it was a good/great trade. Do all of us, and Theo wish he hadn't done the trade. I expect so. Would he make a similar trade again, yup I'm sure he would. I also think expectations of the trade were hurt because the leak was Gabbard and Murphy and we were all doing cartwheels, but then Beltre appeared on the final story and suddenly it seemed like it wasn't a slam dunk just a fair trade. Edited just for spelling and a missed else Is it really hindsight? templeUsox wrote: What an awful, awful trade. I'm glad we went cheap on Pineiro in the off-season. Now we can give up 3 players for a half-season of a reliever. Yay!' Awful. Fucking awful. Link BRING REESE HOME
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Spaceman1968		#33	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 278 07/20/08 2:04 PM Veteran Member	I hated the trade and then abd I hate it now. I am happy for Murphy though. I said a long time ago that Murphy should have been give a chance instead of dumping all that money on Drew. This is the worst trade Theo has made but I guess everything turned out okay other losing Engel, Murphy, and Gabbard.
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flap1919		#34	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 2768 07/20/08 2:08 PM	I thought at the time, and still believe that Beltre has a higher ceiling as a hitter, but I'm glad we kept the SS. Good OFers grow on trees, guys who can legitimately play SS in the majors and not be a liabity at the plate (as we've learned the last few years), are much rarer and a more valuable commodity. At the time of the trade we had a crapload of decent to potentially really good OF prospects, and we had Lowrie's bat, Diaz's glove, and not much else at SS with a struggling SS in the majors.
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gwilliams54		#35	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 100 07/20/08 2:15 PM	I think people are slightly blinded by Murphy's hot start this year and are discounting his trends. OPS by month: .807 in April, .753 in May, .700 in June. Thus far in July he's at .985 (in 85 AB's), but he's still at just .783 on the season (with a pretty sub-standard .317 OBP). Lest we forget he's putting these numbers up in one of the best hitters parks in the Majors. Here are his H/A splits for '08: Home: .285/.320/.479 (.799 OPS) Away: .262/.308/.445 (.753 OPS) I always liked Murphy, but he's a 4th OF, nothing more. Oh, and as for the trade, I agree with those that say it was alright so long as it was Murphy and Gabbard for Gagne. Adding a prospect, particularly a highly-heralded IFA, was overpaying. "The way I see it, the Red Sox are the lesser of two evils. Red Sox fans are like ants. Yankee fans are like termites. One takes over your house, the other will destroy your house if you aren't careful." - Gamingboy (posted at BTF)
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nationinthesouth		#36	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1656 07/20/08 2:25 PM Veteran Member	gwilliams54 wrote: I think people are slightly blinded by Murphy's hot start this year and are discounting his trends. OPS by month: .807 in April, .753 in May, .700 in June. Thus far in July he's at .985 (in 85 AB's), but he's still at just .783 on the season (with a pretty sub-standard .317 OBP). Lest we forget he's putting these numbers up in one of the best hitters parks in the Majors. Here are his H/A splits for '08: Home: .285/.320/.479 (.799 OPS) Away: .262/.308/.445 (.753 OPS) I always liked Murphy, but he's a 4th OF, nothing more. Oh, and as for the trade, I agree with those that say it was alright so long as it was Murphy and Gabbard for Gagne. Adding a prospect, particularly a highly-heralded IFA, was overpaying. Those splits aren't all that heavily weighted enough to say he is a product solely of a hitters ballpark. Agreed he may be a 4th OF, but he would have been an upgrade to Crisp alongside Ellsbury while Papi has been out.
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LondonSox		#37	[url]	[-]
Rookie Posts: 70 07/20/08 4:29 PM	templeUsox wrote: LondonSox wrote: This is hindsight trading at it's worst. Yes Beltre was a painful to give up, but that's what you have to do for a trade. Gabbard and Murphy were to the Sox spare parts, Moss > Murphy and Pauley/Zink > Gabbard. The cost was minor depth plus Beltre for a guy who at the time was pitching well and was expected widely to be a major boost to the pen and give Oki (who most thought would come back to earth) a rest. Beltre was a decent high tools prospect who you could in theory replace with 500k-1mm bonus the next year. Do you give that guy up for what you think could be the key to locking in the best pen in the AL? Of course you do. There may have been some uber fans of Beltre who saw him a lot more than anyone esle that can argue. Anyone else is insane. There were a few who thought Gagne was a question mark, and yeah fine there probably are some who can say I told you so. But NO ONE expected Gagne to be THAT bad. The criticism of this trade would be insane, in hindsight it was a terrible trade that cost the Sox a prospect but not the world series. At the time it was a good/great trade. Do all of us, and Theo wish he hadn't done the trade. I expect so. Would he make a similar trade again, yup I'm sure he would. I also think expectations of the trade were hurt because the leak was Gabbard and Murphy and we were all doing cartwheels, but then Beltre appeared on the final story and suddenly it seemed like it wasn't a slam dunk just a fair trade. Edited just for spelling and a missed else Is it really hindsight? templeUsox wrote: What an awful, awful trade. I'm glad we went cheap on Pineiro in the off-season. Now we can give up 3 players for a half-season of a reliever. Yay!' Awful. Fucking awful. Link Well I should assumed that you didn't like it. Your point is well made in that they do go cheap with relievers. But did you really think the Sox gave up 3 "players" they gave up 2 players who would have been no noticable difference from the current roster and one long term far away prospect. If the Sox are missing gabbard and Murphy then it's far to late to worry. They traded a lottery ticket for what they thought was a good reliever and two draft picks. So that didn't work out but it wasn't "Fucking awful". I think the comment if you want to pay up for relievers why not get them in teh offseason (and have them all year) rather than give up prospects to have them for half a season. I think that's an excellent point.
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HanRam2		#38	[url]	[-]
Rookie Posts: 23 10/13/04 4:17 PM	oscar is still a young player and still has the potential to be a solid player in the majors, and i think he will be
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rjacques1988		#39	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 476 07/20/08 9:10 PM Veteran Member	just looked at beltre's stats: 8 BBs and 74 Ks. wow
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Oscar Tejeda/Engel Beltre, Gagne Trade

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