6/30-7/2 Red Sox @ Tampa Bay Series Thread

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Author	Comment
AgentOrange		#41	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 525 06/30/08 10:15 PM	Even if his future is in the pen, what use is he if he continues to pitch like this against LHHs?
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Archie Graham		#42	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 2588 06/30/08 10:17 PM	Lugo needs to be traded. That's what Lugo needs. (and I don't care about his June numbers) Buchholz/Colon to the rotation Masterson to the bullpen Lowrie in for Lugo Hope Ortiz comes back strong Trade for a reliever I don't think there is much else we can do.
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templeUsox		#43	[url]	[-]
Moderator Veteran Member Posts: 12475 06/30/08 10:17 PM Moderator	I understand the thought process, but I don't understand why everyone says it. When was the last time he pitched out of the pen? The Cape Cod League? No one has seen him throw out of the pen, save some scouts. How come everyone acts like it's a lock that his stuff plays up in the bullpen. And when I say plays up, I don't mean get better. Everyone is better in the pen. I mean improves more than one standard deviation over the normal improvement seen when a starter moves to the pen. Like Paps, for instance. Then I can see that move being justified. But I don't know how everyone keeps taking that as a given when no one has seen him pitch out of the pen. BRING REESE HOME
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MasterShake15		#44	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 806 06/30/08 10:35 PM Senior Editor	I never said his stuff "plays up" in the pen. I just think 2 pitch (sinker/slider) pitchers have a better chance of being successful relievers than starters. EDIT: I think the reason scouts like him more out of the pen is because of his delivery, not his stuff, per se. Last Edited By: MasterShake15 06/30/08 10:44 PM. Edited 1 time.
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nationinthesouth		#45	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1656 06/30/08 10:44 PM Veteran Member	MasterShake15 wrote: I never said his stuff "plays up" in the pen. I just think 2 pitch (sinker/slider) pitchers have a better chance of being successful relievers than starters. As well as the fact that teams won't be able to load up their lineup with lefties like we saw the Rays do.
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Chach Collins		#46	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 2140 06/30/08 10:45 PM	But if he's going to see any meaningful time out of the pen, he's going to have to face lefties. Unless he develops a third pitch to attack lefties with, he's just going to be a compliment to Lopez and what sort of value is that? If he didn't have such a noticeable split then I'd agree that his two pitch repertoire would play better out of the pen than as a starter but he's still going to need that third pitch to be a real effective set-up man. The best choice, in my eyes, is have him continue to start (in the majors or Pawtucket) and work on that change. I don't see why his arm angle makes it impossible to develop a good change. He threw some really good changes tonight and threw some flag ones. It's the consistency he is having issue with. My point is I agree that a two pitch pitcher stands to succeed better out of the pen but the splits issue will still exist in the pen or rotation without a change-up and he will be relegated to mop-up/middle relief if he can't consistently get lefties out. mahalo ~Chach~ Hairps: Bitch, please. For this? I don't start threads, I email Will Leitch.
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rjacques1988		#47	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 476 06/30/08 10:48 PM Veteran Member	i cant believe all the worrying is starting now. let it play out guys, there is a lot of time left. does anyone remember last year? also, take a look at our DL and who we haven't been playing with for extended time. edit: my shitty shitty grammar. my english teacher would be so upset.
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ArodSucksAtLife		#48	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 2761 06/30/08 11:17 PM Veteran Member	We are the best team in this division, easy. We are the best team in the AL, easy. We are the best team in baseball, easy. 3rd in runs scored - ML 10th? in runs against - ML oh well. 3rd in RS-RA behind the Cubs and WhiteSox. No way the WhiteSox keep this up. By exW-L we'd be tied for 2nd best record, right? This is a repeat year. Edit: Can't find an easily organizable team stats list. I'd love to lick the tears off of Joba's face... I'm sure they taste like sweet golden candy...-CheapSeats61 Last Edited By: ArodSucksAtLife 06/30/08 11:33 PM. Edited 1 time.
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TNS		#49	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 3304 06/30/08 11:22 PM	nationinthesouth wrote: MasterShake15 wrote: I never said his stuff "plays up" in the pen. I just think 2 pitch (sinker/slider) pitchers have a better chance of being successful relievers than starters. As well as the fact that teams won't be able to load up their lineup with lefties like we saw the Rays do. Yeah, they'll just save their lefties off the bench for when he comes into the game instead! Masterson needs to develop more regardless of the role. The Red Sox are in a position of luxury that they can take their time with him and allow him to reach his potential whether it is as a starter or a reliever. Either way, he has an obvious weakness right now and he's not going to be effective long-term when he's basically getting by on guts and a sinker. Masterson deserves some credit for being able to do that but expecting him to be a dominant starter in the majors at this point is unrealistic (and because he isn't one now, implying that he's not capable of being a starter is hardly fair).
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nationinthesouth		#50	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1656 06/30/08 11:31 PM Veteran Member	TNS wrote: nationinthesouth wrote: MasterShake15 wrote: I never said his stuff "plays up" in the pen. I just think 2 pitch (sinker/slider) pitchers have a better chance of being successful relievers than starters. As well as the fact that teams won't be able to load up their lineup with lefties like we saw the Rays do. Yeah, they'll just save their lefties off the bench for when he comes into the game instead! Masterson needs to develop more regardless of the role. The Red Sox are in a position of luxury that they can take their time with him and allow him to reach his potential whether it is as a starter or a reliever. Either way, he has an obvious weakness right now and he's not going to be effective long-term when he's basically getting by on guts and a sinker. Masterson deserves some credit for being able to do that but expecting him to be a dominant starter in the majors at this point is unrealistic (and because he isn't one now, implying that he's not capable of being a starter is hardly fair). If the opposition wants to use their lefty pinch hitters to counter a Middle reliever than that's even better. I'm not sold that he will be incapable of starting the rest of the year as is. But if we can get Buck straightened out and Colon can stay healthy Masterson would have better value as a Tavarez type. The hasn't done it since the Cape league worries wouldn't concern me. Last Edited By: nationinthesouth 06/30/08 11:44 PM. Edited 1 time.
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TNS		#51	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 3304 06/30/08 11:40 PM	nationinthesouth wrote: TNS wrote: nationinthesouth wrote: MasterShake15 wrote: I never said his stuff "plays up" in the pen. I just think 2 pitch (sinker/slider) pitchers have a better chance of being successful relievers than starters. As well as the fact that teams won't be able to load up their lineup with lefties like we saw the Rays do. Yeah, they'll just save their lefties off the bench for when he comes into the game instead! If the opposition wants to use their lefty pinch hitters to counter a Middle reliever than that's even better. Joe Maddon did this recently against Doug Brocail of the Astros. It worked.
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TheGoldenGreek33		#52	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1738 07/01/08 2:18 AM Veteran Member	mcneilmj21 wrote: What happened to Masterson's velocity? I have rarely seen him throw a pitch over 90 MPH in the last few starts. Last night: 6/24: brooksbaseball.net "Folks, the re-emergence of infection as a dangerous pandemic is going to be one of the most important societal stories of at least the first half of the 21st century." ~ ASF
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CMF16		#53	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 276 07/01/08 12:01 PM	templeUsox wrote: I understand the thought process, but I don't understand why everyone says it. When was the last time he pitched out of the pen? The Cape Cod League? No one has seen him throw out of the pen, save some scouts. How come everyone acts like it's a lock that his stuff plays up in the bullpen. And when I say plays up, I don't mean get better. Everyone is better in the pen. I mean improves more than one standard deviation over the normal improvement seen when a starter moves to the pen. Like Paps, for instance. Then I can see that move being justified. But I don't know how everyone keeps taking that as a given when no one has seen him pitch out of the pen. I guess you forgot about the summer he pitched out of the Lowell bullpen.
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templeUsox		#54	[url]	[-]
Moderator Veteran Member Posts: 12475 07/01/08 12:06 PM Moderator	I didn't forget. He pitched in 3 and sometimes 4 inning stretches. I'm going to take a guess that he had the mentality of a starting pitcher during those outings w/r/t to not shooting his wad. BRING REESE HOME
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DCRi		#55	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 470 07/01/08 2:07 PM Veteran Member	The Sox have too many holes in their lineup right now with Tek and Ellsbury not hitting, Manny slumping, and Lugo, who hits now and then, but not to very much effect. Having Tek, Lugo and Ellsbury in a row is a killer. Walks seem to be down, especially for Ellsbury. They are throwing him strikes and he's not hitting them. Overall, I think teams are pitching the Sox much tighter now, not letting them get a lot of walks. Unless Ortiz comes back and is close to his old self, I think this team may be in trouble. I know they lead in a lot of categories, and their W-L still looks good. But trends don't, and the weaknesses are increasingly obvious. They need a bat or in two in the lineup. They need another RP who is reasonably consistently reliable. Whatever is wrong with Oki, and it isn't apparent, isn't getting better. Lopez is doing much better than Oki. Something's got to happen, or the Yankees are going to be right on their tail, if not ahead of them. Tampa is not going away, either.
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Brownies28		#56	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 128 07/01/08 2:42 PM	DCRi, isn't this the same argument you could use EVERY SINGLE SEASON for any struggling team? I mean, there were huge stretches last year when you could have said the same thing (just off the top of my head, there was a stretch at the beginning of the year when Pedroia, Manny, Drew and Lugo were horrendous). In '04, just before they went on the tear in early August, they had a three-month stretch where they played one game over .500 ball...three months! You could say the same thing about ________(insert any WS winning team, with the possible exception of the '98 Yankees), just change a few names around and every team has had similar issues. I mean, hell, the Sox last season went from June 1st to August 31st with just a 44-39 record, and despite recent struggles and a whole bevy of injuries this years team has a pretty similar run differential as last year at the same time (+72 to +79). Despite going 4-6 in their last 10 games the team finished June with a 16-11 record. They've lost Schilling for the season, Colon is out, Buchholz was ineffective and then injured, Beckett started the year on the DL, Dice-K had a stint on there as well, Ortiz has been out for what seems like the season (especially the way he was hitting early on), Lowell was out...I mean, this team has dealt with alot and yet they have a top-5 record in baseball. And before I hear another word about Ellsbury, just remember that as recently a two weeks ago Pedroia was hitting .264 with a .311 OBP. Jacoby is young, he's absolutely going to struggle...hell, imagine what we'd be saying if we were watching Justin Upton out in Arizona this season? Give him time, he'll adjust to what the pitchers are doing. And this team will be fine, they have depth, they have stars who can carry the team, they have the best GM in the game and they have guys who have been there before.
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FenwayTheHardWay		#57	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 619 07/01/08 3:26 PM Veteran Member	I don't think you understand. We've lost SIX of TEN. The season is over. I don't know why we're even bothering to play out the rest of the schedule. "And, you know, has it ever occurred to you, that, instead of, uh... this could be a lot more, uh, complex, I mean, it's not just, it might not be just such a simple... uh, you know?"
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DCRi		#58	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 470 07/01/08 5:19 PM Veteran Member	Don't over react. I'm not saying the season is lost. I also love Ellsbury, and I do think he'll be better than OK once he adjusts to the adjustments the pitchers have made. But there are weaknesses on the team that are starting to show. My feeling is that the Sox will do something about it, but how much probably depends on what they think they are going to get out of Ortiz. The team does seem to need a boost from somebody. Also, what might be the impact on the Sox picking up Manny's contract of the little altercation he got into?
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ArodSucksAtLife		#59	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 2761 07/01/08 5:45 PM Veteran Member	You bitches need a Karate Kid montage to up your spirits??? We are the best around. �� I'd love to lick the tears off of Joba's face... I'm sure they taste like sweet golden candy...-CheapSeats61
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FenwayTheHardWay		#60	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 619 07/01/08 5:47 PM Veteran Member	DCRi wrote: Also, what might be the impact on the Sox picking up Manny's contract of the little altercation he got into? Zero? A number smaller than zero? "And, you know, has it ever occurred to you, that, instead of, uh... this could be a lot more, uh, complex, I mean, it's not just, it might not be just such a simple... uh, you know?"
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6/30-7/2 Red Sox @ Tampa Bay Series Thread